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| Side view of an HDF-3000-class Frigate. Photo courtesy of the Republic of Korea Navy thru Flickr |
After my discussion with the Navantia representative about the Avante 2200 Combatant Frigate, their entry into the new Frigate bidding of the Philippine Navy (PN), I proceeded to the Hyundai display area at the Asian Defense and Security (ADAS) 2014 exhibit at Pasay. Navantia's area was already sizable, but Hyundai's was even more so, approximately 50% bigger than Navantia's, and they had more scale models on display, around half a dozen or. I really wasn't sure which of the ships they entered into the bidding, so I looked for a Hyundai representative to ask about it.
There were three Hyundai reps wearing business suits in the booth, one of them was talking to another attendee while the other one was not so friendly looking, in fact he was kinda constantly scowling, so I turned to the third person who looked like a newbie and thus seemed more accommodating. I called his attention and asked him which of the models they entered the bidding, and he promptly took me to the model of the HDF-3000 Frigate.
'The HDF-3000'
The HDF-3000 is Hyundai's designation of the first three Incheon-class Frigates it built for the South Korean Navy. The first one was commissioned just last year in 2013, while the last two ones will be commissioned later this year (2014). These first three Hyundai-made ships are known as "Batch I" while the next three ones will be built by another Korean company, Daewoo Shipbuilding and Marine Engineering (DSME) and are known as "Batch II". Other important characteristics of the HDF-3000 are as follows:1 2
Displacement: 3,000 tons
Length: 114 m
Beam: 14 m
Draft: 4 m
Complement: 145
‘As Is Systems’
As it is right now, the HDF-3000 has a couple of features that would meet the current bid requirements already, and these are:
- Speed and Range – In terms of performance, the HDF-3000 exceeds the speed requirements of the bidding as it has maximum speed of 30 knots while the requirement is only for 25 knots, and it also faster than the 28 knot maximum speed of one of its rivals, the Avante 2200 Combatant (A2200C). Its range of 8,100 km @ 18 knots also comfortably exceeds the requirement of 8,100 km @ 15 knots.
- Main Gun System – I mentioned to the Hyundai representative that the gun should be 76 mm caliber, but he corrected me and said that it will be 127 mm caliber instead. The South Korean Navy uses the Oto Melara 127 mm Gun, but for us we have never had a MODERN gun of this large a caliber before on a ship. We already have the Jacinto and Del Pilar class of ships using the 76 mm gun, so for easier logistics and support it makes more sense to use it also for the new Frigates. But on the other hand, a 127 mm gun will have longer range and better "hitting" power against all types of targets, hence it is possible that Hyundai offered this as their main option for the ship, but I think it is likely that the Navy will go with the 76 mm gun instead.
- Torpedo Launchers – The ship has two triple Torpedo launchers, one on each side, but instead of the standard combination of Mk 32 Triple Torpedo Launchers and Mk 46 Torpedoes found on most ships, the HDF-3000 will likely be using the South Korean-made Doosan KMK32 Mod 5 Triple Launchers3 in conjunction with the K745 Chung Sang Eo (Blue Shark) Lightweight Torpedo.4 This torpedo actually has a longer stated range of 19 km instead of the only eleven km for the Mk 46.
- Softkill System – The ship uses the South Korean license-built version of the DAGAIE Mk 2 Decoy System,5 hence the addition of the letter "K" into their designation so it ends up being called the KDAGAIE Mk 2 Decoy System. The bid requirement only calls for six decoy launchers, three on each side, but the KDAGAIE system can exceed this comfortably as it can have as much as 20 launchers, ten on each side. In terms of number of rounds it is superior to the six launcher per side used on the A2200C.
- Main Radar System – The ship usually has a Thales Smart-S Mk2 3D Radar (the same radar as the A2200C) which exceeds the specifications as it has the combined operation of an Air and Surface Search radar, but I wasn't able to confirm with the Hyundai rep if this will really be used. It is also possible that their bid will use the unnamed LIG-Nex1 3D Radar6 intended for use with the next batch of Incheon-class ships which will likely be cheaper since they are locally produced in South Korea. Nevertheless the Smart-S has an estimated detection range of at least 81 km for an aerial target with a Radar Cross Section (RCS) of 5 m^2. Detection range for a surface target with an RCS of 30,000 m^2 is at least 32 km, better than the AN/SPS-73 Radar on the Del Pilar class ships which can only detect the same size target at around 22 km.7
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| A scale model of an HDF-3000 Frigate shown at the ADAS 2014 Exhibit. Photo courtesy of Roy Kabanlit |
- Anti-Ship Missiles (AShM) – The ship carries two quad launchers for AShMs, comfortably exceeding the two twin launcher requirement, although I'm not sure if Hyundai will stay with the two quad launcher configuration or change it to a two twin-launcher system. The ship will use the South Korean made SSM-700K Hae Sung (C-Star) Anti Ship Cruise Missile8 which actually has a slightly longer stated range of 150 km compared to the 140 km range of the RGM-84 Harpoon Missile.
- Surface to Air Missiles (SAM) – The ship's SAM system consists of a single Mk 49 Launcher holding 21 rounds of the RIM-116 Rolling Airframe Missile (RAM). Each RAM has a warhead of around nine kg and a range of nine km, and is license-built in South Korea by the company LIG-Nex1.9
- Sonar System – I was also unable to confirm with the Hyundai rep the exact details of the sonar system of the ship, the only detail I can confirm about it is that it will be hull-mounted as shown on the model at the ADAS 2014 exhibit. It will either be the unnamed Thales Sonar system used with the first batch, or it will be the unnamed LIG-Nex1 Sonar system6 for use with the next batch of Incheon-class ships.
- Close In Weapons System (CIWS) – For CIWS, the ship uses the Mk 15 Phalanx CIWS, which exceeds the requirement for a stabilized gun that can be controlled with the ship's Fire Control System as the Phalanx has its own radar. It is also better than the A2200C's proposed 30 mm gun on a Remote Weapons System (RWS) mount due to its much higher rate of fire.
- Endurance – The endurance of the HDF-3000 is listed as 45 days10 which came as a minor shock to me as this is higher than the endurance of most vessels designed for long endurance patrols, like Offshore Patrol Vessels (OPV) for example which have endurance of only around 30 days. What's strange is that endurance and range usually go together, like the Floreal for example has an endurance of 50 days and a range of 15,000 km at 15 knots, but in the case of the HDF-3000 it has a very long endurance but has a relatively short range of only around 9,100 km @ 18 knots, which means that to maximize its endurance, it will have to spend longer times on stationary positions and/or moving at very slow speeds. This is not necessarily a bad thing, just a little bit unusual to me.
‘Modifications’
Notice that unlike my blogs about the modified Floreal and modified A2200C, this "Modifications" section won't be as extensive as the HDF-3000 fits the bid requirements very well, almost to a tee. This lends credence to the speculation that the bid specifications were made with the HDF-3000 in mind.
- Helipad Capacity and Enclosed Hangar Space – The ship has an enclosed hangar space but current rating for the weight it can support is less than ten tons, hence this will have to be upgraded to meet the specifications.
I specifically asked the Hyundai representative when he showed me the model of the HDF-3000 if the RAM and Phalanx will really be included, and he said "Yes". I was initially still skeptical about this, after all, Navantia have had to cut some corners to fit the Avante 2200 Combatant into our budget, but later after doing a little bit more research and reflection, I can see why this might be possible. For one, the RAM is license-built in South Korea, hence costs for it should be lower than if they were built by the Raytheon Company in the US.
Another is that labor and manufacturing costs in South Korea would be significantly lower than if they were built in Europe like in Spain, for example, as European-standard design and manufacturing also mean European-standard pricing. Also, the ship itself is designed differently and may actually have lower manufacturing costs than a ship like the A2200C. Lastly, the HDF-3000 uses mostly South Korean-made equipment and weapons like the K745 Torpedoes, KDAGAIE Decoys and SSM-700K Missiles, and possibly also the radar and sonar sensors. So the only expensive west-made item they had to spend for is the Phalanx, which costs USD 14 million each,11 and with the savings they made in other areas, it may really be possible for them to offer the Phalanx to us.
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| Front view of an HDF-3000-class Frigate. Photo courtesy of the Republic of Korea Navy thru Flickr |
‘Comparisons’
Compared to the modified Floreal-class, the HDF-3000:
- Is SUPERIOR as it already fits the bid requirements almost perfectly, while the Floreal needs a lot of upgrade;
- Has a sleeker and cleaner lines in terms of appearance;
- Has slightly less endurance;
- Has much less range;
- More manpower intensive requiring a crew of 145 versus 88;
- Is built along military specifications instead of commercial specifications, making it more weapons and equipment "dense" than the Floreal for the given space;
- Has a similar DAGAIE decoy system.
In its original state, the A2200C would've been superior to the HDF-3000 with its Vertical Launch System (VLS) and Towed Array Sonar System (TASS), but since those have been downgraded, the fight is much closer. Compared to the modified Avante 2200 Combatant, the HDF-3000:
- Has a slightly faster maximum speed;
- Has considerably longer endurance;
- Has a better decoy system carrying more rounds per side, ten versus six;
- Has a better CIWS, if Hyundai will really offer the Phalanx;
- Probably will have a better SAM system;
- Uses non-western, locally produced weapons and equipment like the SSM-700K missile, K745 torpedo, etc.;
- More manpower intensive requiring a crew of 145 versus 92;
- Less sleek or clean lines.
‘Observations’
The bigger crew on the HDF-3000 is a concern, indicating a lower degree of automation for most of the ship's systems. Since it requires almost 58% more men to operate, it also means an almost 58% higher manpower cost.
The Floreal can still be the dark horse in the competition if it can maintain its endurance and range advantage, although making all those upgrades while still using commercial specifications might be tricky.
Between the A2200C and the HDF-3000, it looks like it's a choice between a ship with lower operating cost but less performance and slightly less capable equipment/weapons, or a ship that has slightly better equipment/weapons and better performance but much higher operating costs. As for future growth, both ships will likely be able to fit a VLS if need be, even the HDF-3000. It can be located behind the HDF-3000's main gun as it seems there is enough space there as can be seen on the picture of a model of it on the ADAS 2014 exhibit. The countries behind both companies will also be able to provide "freebies" in terms of excess ships if needed, probably more Pohang-class ships from South Korea and the Descubierta-class ships from Spain.
‘Parting Shot’
This ends the highlights of my ADAS 2014 experience, I wasn't able to discuss as much with the Hyundai rep about the ship as he wasn't as engaging as the Navantia representative in presenting their ship's features. I suspect it's because his English is not really that great, just passable. I apologize for again missing out on some details as I wasn't really prepared, going to the exhibit was sort of like a last-minute situation.
I hope organizers will officially open future defense exhibits to the public at least in the last day or so instead of vacillating between allowing the public or not like they did in this exhibit. They can charge much higher entrance fees, say at least P200-300, if they want to limit foot traffic to manageable levels.
As for the HDF-3000, unfortunately among the confirmed candidates it is just not my personal favorite because I just don't think it's as sleek or clean looking as the A2200C, and it's just too manpower intensive requiring a much larger crew leading to higher operating costs. But this is just my opinion, of course, and admittedly the HDF-3000 does have better performance and better equipment/weapons which means it could be the frontrunner among the ships that were confirmed to be candidates in the bidding.
In the end it is the Navy who is in a best position to decide which ship is best for their operations as they have all of the accurate data available to them. Anyway, whatever they choose, all Filipinos will still end up being the winner in that we will be buying our first brand-new Frigates in the history of our republic.
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| Rear view of an HDF-3000-class Frigate. Photo courtesy of the Panzercho Blog |
Revision History:
* July 27, 2014: Originally posted
* July 31, 2014: Added better information about the HDF-3000's endurance, revised some sentences related to it.
SOURCES:
- Incheon Class Frigates / Future Frigate Experimental (FFX), South Korea,
(https://web.archive.org/web/20140913031057/http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/incheon-class-ffx-frigates-south-korea/) - HDF-3000 Series,
(https://web.archive.org/web/20131031173505/http://naval.hhi.co.kr/english/ships/ships01_02.asp) - Doosan Launcher,
(https://web.archive.org/web/20141020172358/http://www.doosandst.com/en/products/launcher.do) - Chung Sang Eo (Blue Shark) torpedo, (https://web.archive.org/web/20140807162315/http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chung_Sang_Eo_(Blue_Shark)_torpedo)
- Dagaie/Sagaie - Archived 12/2000,
(https://web.archive.org/web/20161115084629/https://www.forecastinternational.com/archive/disp_old_pdf.cfm?ARC_ID=1721) - LIG-Nex1 Product Brochure, (https://web.archive.org/web/20130530032711/http://www.lignex1.com:8001/images/pr/data/bro/be.pdf)
- Smarter (and Simpler) Radar in Harpoon, (https://web.archive.org/web/20160313125508/http://clashofarms.com/files/smarter%20radars%20for%20hpn.pdf)
- ASM/SSM-700K Sea Star (Haesung / Haeseong / Haesong),
(https://web.archive.org/web/20160805044639/http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/rok/haesung.htm) - RAM Missiles to Be Developed Locally, (https://web.archive.org/web/20161115091345/http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2015/04/286_53838.html)
- NAVAL SHIP CONCEPT DESIGN FOR THE REPUBLIC OF KOREA NAVY: A SYSTEMS ENGINEERING APPROACH, (https://web.archive.org/web/20161115091653/http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a508991.pdf)
- Korean Navy Orders Phalanx Guns from Raytheon,
(https://web.archive.org/web/20160325080645/http://navaltoday.com/2014/02/25/korean-navy-orders-phalanx-guns-from-raytheon/)
The HDF-3000 since it is bigger, has more potential for future upgrades. But I still stand on the fact that if the Avante keeps its VLS and its ability to fire 32 ESSM, then I am more inclined to lean of the Spaniard. Spain with all it economic ills should go for broke to simply break even and settle to simply bring in the $410+ million (budget for the 2 frigate program) to its ailing economy.
ReplyDeleteWe have not discussed lengthily on the propulsion. If the Avante comes with its electric capability as advertised (CODOE), then it should be hands down be the logical choice. That is an additional savings in slower speeds. You've mentioned about the 58% manpower addition, well this is another biggie, operating and fuel costs.
Tactically, hunting down the submarines, should also go to a eerily quiet electrical propulsion of Avante vs the CODOG HDF-3000. That is a big advantage.
But then again, as you said, they seemed to have made the Batch 1 as its basis for its minimum specs then the Avante got its work cut out (Uphill climb). Like they say, any of the two will do.
Nice blog, rhk..
ReplyDeleteAnd I prefer the Incheon. Overall, this ship have better specs that match the near and long-term needs of our navy.
No, the A2200C is offered in CODAD only, which is probably why it has relatively high maximum speed than if they used CODOE.
ReplyDeleteI really like the A2200C, I hope it wins. Its European standard design and manufacturing is a big thing, which is probably why it is crewed less. But the HDF-3000 is not bad, especially with all those weapons.
Thanks, pchoy. I would be happy with any new, modern ship, as this will be the first buy of our republic of a ship this size ...
ReplyDeletei feel south korean will win the frigate bidding. To maintain this ship i think the koreans have the advantage in after sales support just like any other successful products they have in our country like vehicles and construction machineries.
ReplyDeleteI like the "as-is" part of the DF-3000.
ReplyDeleteIf we get it, the CIWS is good already with the 127mm gun, RIM-116, Phalanx, and a couple of manpads to form a multi-layer air defense.
And it can have another defenseive/offensive layer if we can add 32-cell ESSM in future upgrades. This ship has high chance of surviving a deadly engagement while protecting our air space.
And I hope we get the 4x2 AShM launchers too. In future upgrade, we can add another 4x2 for a total 16 AShM.
In all, this is one, hard-ass ship, very superior in AAW and ASuW (and also decent ASW with the AW159 wildcat).
The whole nation will be highly proud of this ship, even more so if we get 6 units in all.
I agree, the as-is systems are pretty good. IF, a big if, we do get to add a VLS for SAMs and 8-12 more AShMs in the future, it will be one hell of a well-armed ship.
ReplyDeleteIf we do get these, I wonder if the PhN will graduate to the Batch 2 ships by DSME for the next orders. Those generally are better than these HDF-3000s ...
I hope the PN would stick to the 127mm main gun, for mission flexibility and firepower. I mean the PMC could also benefit from such in case of conducting shore base operations (like the Zamboanga crisis) that need coastal bombardment or targeting. Its just my opinion.
ReplyDeleteThere is a big difference in range between the 76 and 127, at least 50% more for the 127, 16 km versus 24 km using conventional rounds. Plus you get to use long-range, Vulcano IR guided rounds against enemy ships. I think its better, its just that 'nauna na yung 76' in our inventory. But that could still be accommodated if the PhN agrees to it.
ReplyDeletePhalanx on-mount radar now with better surface search capability. Tracking subsystem with f/c radar and FLIR. 3 items in one. Is HHI actually saving money going with this set-up?
ReplyDeletehttp://defensetech.org/2013/08/21/navy-overhauls-phalanx-ship-defense-weapon/
Thanks for the info, franmar.
ReplyDeleteI have this feeling that if our ships do get the Phalanx, it will be the "star" weapon of our Navy. Its pretty popular, a lot people seem to know about it ...
If funds are not the issue the as is features for this will be accepted. If the phn wants to save it will have to choose wisely on what to install or change. A suggestion would be a default config vessel and another a specialized one. One of them could take on the anti sub duties by using towed sonars, depth charges, better sub hunting gear.
ReplyDeleteThe discubiertas of spain are older compared to the pohangs by 5 to 10 years so i think the hyundai deal is better overall in especially in terms of freebies.
Well the Descubierta's have SAMs which the Pohangs doesn't have, but the Pohangs have AShMs which the Descubiertas doesn't have, hence 'bawi lang'. As for the age of the ships, they were commissioned around the same time in the mid 1980s so they have the same age.
ReplyDeleteIt would be great if we get the 127mm gun instead of the 76mm, with its longer range and power. It greatly enhance the surface attack capability of the ship.
ReplyDeleteWith 127mm gun using the VULCAN rounds, we can engage surface targets with BOTH AShMs and VULCANs if the target are within 100km range. This is such a huge tactical advantage compared to just using AShM alone.
Imagine a PLAN ship getting hit with 10 rounds, followed by a Harpoon or 2, then another 10 rounds to finish it off. All of this happening in sequence in just a couple of minutes apart. That enemy ship is a goner.
Agree. The Vulcano rounds will be more expensive than conventional rounds, but its very long range and ability to be guided via laser or IR will open up a lot of new capabilities for our navy ...
ReplyDeleteGood job, Rhk111
ReplyDeleteClose fight between Avante and Hyundai. My bet is with the South Korean bidder as its deepens our relationship with a friendly ally which is in the same region as well.
Cant wait for the results of the winner. As for the manpower difference between navantia and the hyundai i think its of little concern for now. We need as much navy troops to be familiar with new tech as possible. In essence even if this were a frigate to us filipinos this might as well be our biggest battleship/war machine ever in our history. A ginormous morale booster for our afp. 2 whecs, 2 ssv, 2 frigates, 1 corvette, 4 missile boats (when is the bidding?), 2 mpa...the navy sure got a lot..hope this rate continues until the next admin. Hope the dark lord doesnt become pres or else we will be getting second hand roro landing craft and coastal patrol boats for the 6 years because we will kissing chinese ass for the rest of his term.
ReplyDeleteBigger gun, Big size can carry more ammunitions and counter measures to match the Type C, D or future Type 55 destroyers. The Phil Navy should know what up against.
ReplyDeleteI don't think the HDF-3000 can match the firepower of a Type 52D Destroyer. However, if the PhN will really put 16 AShMs into it, and maybe put an 8-cell SAM launcher on it also (if possible), than that would be a fantastic start.
ReplyDeleteThanks, the navy was supposed to come out with the winner this July, and next week July will be over so I hope they will really release it then ...
ReplyDeleteMS-SGP developed specifically for Mk 45 Mod 4:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.baesystems.com/product/BAES_157359/5-multi-service---standard-guided-projectile?_afrLoop=298873007311000&_afrWindowMode=0&_afrWindowId=null
Not wanting to burst any bubbles here, but where exactly would you place the VLS? RHK noted a small space behind the main gun, but imho I’d say that its a bit wee too small.. it’ll barely fit an 8-cell MK-41 much less 32-cells.. and then the 2 quad AShM launchers, where will that go? And don’t forget top-weight and stability issues before you’d go on proclaiming a battleship is made!
ReplyDeleteFFX-1 current price ----> 310 billion won (rates apply)
ReplyDeleteIncheon Batch 1 ----> 370 billion won (Test SHIP Price)
Gyeonggi-do, Jeollabuk -------> 310 billion won
Incheon-class price rise .. ~!
$ 420 million budget Specifications
3D search radar ----> 2D radar
RAM Block 1 ------> Mistral multi launcher system
Palrangseu 1B ------> Mk.38 Mod.2 25mm mgs
127mm ----------> 75mm Super Rapid
Thanks, Kim. Coming from a South Korean, this is a very good observation. 310 billion Won is equivalent to USD 302 million, far short of the USD 200 Million budget we have for each ship. But I wonder if the price could be cut down somewhat by some design changes and also since these are further production models.
ReplyDeleteAt any rate, if the HDF-3000 does downgrade their weapons, then might as well go with the Avante 2200 since it has lower operating cost due to its smaller manpower requirements.
Defense Industry Daily puts the cost of the Batch 1 Incheons at only USD 232 million, a lot closer to the USD 200 million budget we have for the ship. So it may still be possible for the weapons and equipment to be maintained at that price ... http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/ffx-koreas-new-frigates-05239/
ReplyDeleteHI RHK, I am contented at at peace with my choice for Avante 2200...
ReplyDeleteKahit ano, basta bago, LOL. But the Avante does look more "modern", more similar in lines to the Sigma and Formidable-class ships. It does make a difference, when you have these ships go side by side on events like the RIMPAC exercises. Plus they are functional also: I suspect that the Avante's more stealthy looking lines means a lower radar cross section ...
ReplyDeleteThe USD 232 million estimate is newer than the 140 billion won (USD 136 million) estimate, so I would put more credibility on the USD 232 million price. Also, the USD 136 million estimate COULD be just the hull without weapons and equipment. But again, it shows that the ship price can vary a somewhat and there is room to "maneuver" for the pricing.
ReplyDeleteThe build plan for this Incheon ships are somewhat strange, though. 3 ships by Hyundai, 1 ship by DSME, 2 ships by STX? And they vary in design, although the general hull form is kept.
China Wants To Donate 3 Warships, As A Sign Of Goodwill To The Philippines -
ReplyDeleteSee more at: http://www.manilalivewire.com/2014/06/china-wants-to-donate-3-warships-as-a-sign-of-goodwill-to-the-philippines-1/#sthash.iqRnqzET.RJRtJQbS.dpuf
Would you?
Nah, that's a thrash article from a thrash blog. Notice that he did not put a link to his source, and that the report was never verified by other reputable news organizations. I don't even know if the blog author is making a parody or not as some of his blogs are factual, some are not. I think he is just making those blogs to drive traffic to his site.
ReplyDeleteAnything but the Floreal please.
ReplyDeletehi,
ReplyDeletethe indian bid is the least known among the candidates but its supposedly based on the Kamorta corvette(?) do you have any interesting info about their bid? thanks for always being accommodating to queries including from armchair admirals like me.
i read a news article (sorry couldnt find it anymore) that the committee had already come up with an updated specs for the projected ship but have to wait for approval from the higher ups.
ReplyDeleteNo official confirmation on Garden Reach's bid, but it is likely to be a modified version of the Kamorta class. Well, some of us here are armchair generals like me, but nothing wrong with armchair generals in my book, Tom Clancy was one ...
ReplyDeleteNot sure if the 2 STX companies fielded different candidates, but no news on them or on the DSME candidate. The DSME candidate could likely be a modified version of the DW3000H, the same one that won Thailand's Frigate bidding project.
ReplyDeleteNobody loves the Floreal, LOL. But I wouldn't outright dismiss that ship, it does have good range and endurance, better than both the Avante 2200 or HDF-3000 ...
ReplyDeleteThey were scheduled to announce it this month, but, well, there's still a couple of days before July ends ...
ReplyDeleteMe too, I choose South Korean bidder, if you see they already give us a pair of ships, who knows maybe someday our gov't must think deep for this.
ReplyDelete@Jean-Claude
ReplyDeleteYou have a point. 32-cell is a quite a stretch for the existing FFX design, and I knew it even as I post above.
I just mentioned 32-cell since the frigate is supposed to be a AAW frigate based on the Navy's desired force mix. In my own opinion, a 32-cell VLS is a minimum for such a frigate.
Though a 16-cell VLS is easily doable than a 32-cell, the latter, IMHO, might still be possible since the VLS is a compact system. If the superstructure is shortened a bit and the main gun moved forward a bit to give space, it can be accomodated.
And top weight is not an issue for VLS since it is hull penetrated and not mounted on the superstructure.
If the PH navy wants range and endurance, they could purchase more Hamiltons. I'm sure we'd be happy to sell more once they are made available.
ReplyDeleteThese modern looking designs from Navantia and Hyundai are striking. Floreal, not so much.
ESSM in compact Mk 56 VLS tubes or multiple CAMM stand-alone launchers built into the hangar walls. See UAE Baynunah corvettes and South Korea's LST-II. http://pds22.egloos.com/pds/201111/25/07/a0105007_4ecf00a461dde.jpg, http://img577.imageshack.us/img577/8190/mdog.jpg, http://i.imgur.com/clhxb3K.jpg
ReplyDeleteI read your government may only retire 1 instead of 2 Hamiltons per year, and with a couple of countries also interested in them, I'm not sure if it will go to us. We really need that Hamilton next year ...
ReplyDeleteNew information available: Endurance for the HDF-3000 is around 45 days. http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a508991.pdf
ReplyDeleteProbably 1 reason why that superstructure is so large. Strange, though, only a 9,100 km range @ 18 knots, and yet an endurance of 45 days? At any rate, another feather in the cap of the HDF-3000, and I may have to update the blog ...
18 knots! WHEC '378: 14k miles @12 knots; 45 days endurance; displacement 2,716t standard / 3,050t full. Is it the dimensions? (Not to mention a decades-wide gap in propulsion and hullform technology.)
ReplyDeleteNot sure if even at 12 knots cruising speed the HDF-3000 will be able to match the 14k mile range of the Hamilton, though. So it might have to spend most of those 45 days at stationary positions or running at very low speeds. Note that the 45-day endurance exceeds the endurance of most Offshore Patrol Vessels. Not that I'm complaining, I just find it a little bit unusual ...
ReplyDeleteBatch I displacement 2,300t empty / 3,251t full load. Margins comparable to a WHEC = comparable capacity for storing provisions?
ReplyDeleteProbably.
ReplyDeleteI was looking at the tech specs of the ASW helicopters also being tendered. These helicopters are planned to be paired with these frigates
ReplyDeleteWhen the ASW helicopter is sent well into a forward position for providing OTH targeting against a probable surface contact, its only defense is stealth via is native low RCS and flying low. It is not specified to have ESM-ELINT, RWR and MAWS. There is no soft kill system as well such as ECM and flare/chaff. I am not saying that it must possess all the aforesaid but it should have at least a few of these features so that is becomes reasonably survivable
The helicopter is specified to have radar but turning this on announces the helicopter’s presence to everyone. If the helicopter attempts to approach an able OPFOR ship hoping to stay undetected, getting close enough for the effective targeting range of its EO/FLIR will put it well within the reach of the ship’s medium range air-to-surface missiles
As the current tech specs being tendered for the frigates allows only for 6 km short range air-to-surface missiles. As soon as the ASW helicopter leaves the frigate, it is a total sitting duck against an OPFOR fighter aircraft even with short range AAM
MAD is also not specified
Just noting that the UK and South Korean versions of the Augusta Westland AW-159 Wildcat poses MAD and some of the electronic measures I mentioned above. The Wildcat appears to be AFP’s preferred model in the ongoing tender of the ASW helicopters
If I need to be corrected above, please feel free to do so
Apologies, with the "air-to-surface missiles above, I instead meant SAM
ReplyDeletePage 70, Item 8.2; "Shall have provisions for self defense stores including chaff and flares." What, manually operated? :( Two AW109s for delivery will have electronic warfare systems, right?
ReplyDeleteThat takes care of the countermeasures, but kinda short and generalized, though. What about the warning systems, both for radar and missile?
ReplyDeleteI agree this is a much better weapon than the Phalanx CIWS. I don't think it will fit into our budget for the Frigates, though ...
ReplyDeleteFor Phl. Navy best option is to buy 4 Hamilton and 4 Pohang ships, modernize Hamilton frigate with Phalanx systems, add Harpooon missiles to all this ships and aquire 4 antisubmarine hellicopters.
ReplyDeleteThis ships will allow Phl navy to replace old WWII ships and to allow surveilance in Spratley islands. All this new frigates won't survive china attack without air cover. I think this is more than waste money for small defence budget.
I think these new Frigates have decent defense against aircraft and missiles with their short-range SAMs, gun-based CIWS and decoy systems. Of course it could be better with the addition of medium-range SAMs, but as it is its not bad ...
ReplyDeleteHi rhk111, I hope you make a DSME/FFX-II comparison as well. How does she compare to the HDF-3000 and Avante 2200?
ReplyDeleteI don't think I'm going to do a blog about the Incheon Batch 2, Mayk. However, let me try to answer you queries here. The Batch 2 is clearly SUPERIOR to Batch 1, and the things that they changed are the following:
ReplyDelete- Change to a Combined Diesel Electric and/or Gas Turbine Engine (CODLAG/CODLOG) used on most if not all new ship designs like the FREMM Frigate. This engine configuration is reportedly more silent and more fuel-efficient than COGAG engines, but not sure if it will be more efficient than a CODAD engine
- Use of a medium-range South Korean made K-SAAM on a 16-cell Vertical Launch system
- Use of Red Shark Anti Submarine Rocket launched from the VLS
- Change to the Rheinmetall Multi Ammunition Softkill System (MASS)
- Use of a Towed Array Sonar System
Batch 3 is reportedly going to be even better, with:
- 48 cell VLS
- New Gas Turbine and Electric engine configuration, with the electric engine similar to the ones used on Submarines, which makes it even more silent when running on its electric engines
- A new, integrated stealth mast
Details above are a little bit sketchy, though, because one thing I noticed is that it is not easy to get accurate information on South Korean weapons and equipment. Maybe this is intentional, as they are still on war footing with North Korea.
However, if the details are true, then I would say that a Batch 2 Incheon compared to a non-downgraded Avante 2200 Combatant would have:
- Better ASW weapons with the ASROCs;
- Better decoy system with the MASS;
- Probably better engine configuration
wow.... the batch 3 could be more than enough for our anti-air warfare frigate needs (well we still need info about the radar/sensors and combat management)
ReplyDeleteBatch 3 won't be available until around 2018, though. But if we can wait that long, it would be an ideal Frigate for us ...
ReplyDeleteI agree that comparing against the PLAN destroyer is not fair
ReplyDeleteHowever, it will be good to have a quick comparison with PLAN’s contemporary missile frigates : Jikiang Type 54A
Yup, and we might have the money to buy these only then. And the current frigates on order will only be delivered by then so we'd need some years more to practice operating general/multirole frigates before thinking of buying more complex AAW ones.
ReplyDeleteBetween the HDF-3000 and the Type 54A Frigate, the Type 54A is better. Better air defense (32 SAMs in a 32-cell VLS, 2 Type 730 CIWS), Anti Submarine Rockets and longer range (11,700 km @ 18 knots). Much bigger crew, though, at 250. http://www.jeffhead.com/TYPE054A/index.htm
ReplyDeleteIt may be comparable to the Batch 2 Incheons, depending on how many K-SAAMs they can fit into those 16-cell VLS. It is comparable to a non-downgraded Avante 2200 Combatant. A Batch 3 Incheon will likely be superior to the Type 54A.
Many thanks for diving your views, Rhk111
ReplyDeleteType 54A is the most numerous frigate of PLAN and a good reference point in my opinion. I need to correct myself above on the frigate NATO codename which is "Jiangkai II"
It appears that if we fit the VLS in the near future, we could be at par. I also place more trust on Western missiles, sensors and FCR which could be PN's advantage. The paired ASW helo as specified is likely to be better as well than the Typre 54A's Kamov or Harbin
My view is a fitted VLS should be a mandatory requirement even if the SAMs are purchased later. This will ensure space and proper fit-out
The medium range SAM's vastly improves the frigate's chance in eliminating incoming AShMs with the RIM-116 and Phalanx left for the leaks as what is intended for short range and close in defense.
Response time is drastically cut short with supersonic AShMs. With Type 54A's C803 AShM which is mach 2 at its terminal phase, that's a mere 13 secs of response time for the 9 km range of RIM-116. This is further compounded by the ability of advanced AShMs to be programmed to attack from multiple axis which further reduces the number RIM-116 can engage. AShM first launch is more likely a salvo on the principle of "use it or lose it"
Without long/medium range SAM, a contemporary surface attack aircraft could launch AShM at stand off distance with our frigate unable to shoot back
It also provides some cover and increases confidence for the paired ASW helo to carry out a surveillance mission with its search radar active and at a high elevation defeating the horizon limitations
Many thanks for giving your views, Rhk111
ReplyDeleteIf they know WHEN the hack occurred, and WHAT information were retrieved, they will be able to make changes in the system so it won't be as vulnerable anymore. At least that's how it should be ...
ReplyDeleteI agree that a VLS with medium-range SAMs would help improve the survivability of our ships against China's supersonic AShMs. From what I understand, the future batches of the Incheons will retain the Phalanx and RAM even if they get the K-SAAM, adding another layer in their missile defense capability. So their layered defense will be like, Decoys -> Phalanx -> RAM -> K-SAAM, which will be very good, indeed.
ReplyDeleteWith short-range missiles, our ships will not be able to defend against aircraft, only against the missiles they launch. Medium range SAMs will make it harder for attacking aircraft to attack our ships.
Yep, the Jammers will help, too, against AShMs. Probably even more so than hardkill systems, based on actual historical combat data ...
ReplyDeleteAgreed. As for missiles RAM has its advantages. Simple to reload and unlike a VLS this can be done at sea. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0CPTI3ndlA
ReplyDeleteThanks for the link, franmar. Reloading is kinda slow, though. Still, at least they CAN be reloaded at sea, unlike current VLS systems ...
ReplyDeletejuly 31 na. who won?
ReplyDeleteThe Floreal won. Just kidding. No announcement yet, the entire month of July has now passed and still nothing. The bidding has been going on for 10 months now, and counting. I hope it won't reach more than a year for them to decide ...
ReplyDeletehuh? the bidding starts on December, right?
ReplyDeleteThe bidding for the 2 new Frigates started October 2013, check out my "Philippine Navy New Frigate Acquisition Timeline", use the "Timelines" category to search for it ...
ReplyDeleteHi RHK, what goes around comes around. hehehe!
ReplyDeleteWhile you were discussing the lack of this feature in the ASW helos, it is the CAS that's been on the spotlight on this matter:
http://www.angmalaya.net/nation/2014/08/01/2738-countermeasures-must-be-fitted-on-cas-aircraft-dnd-tells-prospective-bidders
The HDF-3000 is equipped with Mk 49 GMLS which uses the RIM-116 RAM as its effect weapon, same as those of SeaRAMs. Moreover, the Mk 15 Phalanx CIWS is another part of the ships layered defense.
ReplyDeleteYeah, and its a good thing that they did. The Supplemental Bid Bulletin where the suppliers asked the DND questions which were then answered is actually kind of interesting:
ReplyDelete- https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3LR7H3igVpmc25PYXN6QjdUZEk/edit?usp=sharing
- https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3LR7H3igVpmYjlsN2hOZFlFSWs/edit?usp=sharing
Summary of questions from the interested bidders:
ReplyDeleteBeechcraft, maker of the AT-6
* Is there a need for self-sealing fuel tanks, MAWS and automated CMDS
* MX-15Di pod intended for use is made traditional materials and not composite required. Also only has analog output instead of digital output required.
Iomax, maker of the Archangel
* Waive Fully Aerobatic requirement
* Waive retractable landing gear
* Waive 220 KIAS Cruise Speed
* Allow limited HOTAS
* Questioned necessity of Air to Air capability
* Allow In Seat Ejection instead of Ejection Seat
* Questioned necessity of Anti-G System
EADS, CASA, maker of the PZL Orlik
* Change Payload to 1,800 lbs. instead of 3,000 lbs.
* Change requirement from 5 hardpoints with 600 lbs. requirement to 4 hardpoints with 550 lbs.
* Change OBOGS to Oxygen bottles or equivalent sytems
* Noted that use of armor, warning and countermeasures will prevent it from meeting the required payload
Questions from Embraer, Elbit and KAI were less technical, indicating that they have products that can meet the specs (Embraer with the ST), or need more time to consider if they can tweak their products to meet the specs (Elbit and ST).
So it appears that IOMAX has more issues to deal with but EADS CASA are the most technically challenged...
ReplyDeleteIt would be a shock, to say the least, if ever either of the two wins.
Hi RKH111, maybe the PN can add a couple of RIM-162 ESSM firing Mark 48 VLS on a later date or the the cheaper Barak SAM system at the cost of added top weight.
ReplyDeleteThe Avante 2200 won't likely have top weight problems if a VLS is installed in the future as it already has one in its inherrent design, its just that Navantia might not use it to fit our budget.
ReplyDeleteAs for the HDF-3000, adding a VLS might be tricky as it is not currently in the ship's design, but the PhN could confirm with the manufacturer the feasibility of adding one in the future.
As for the Floreal ... Future growth will always be a problem for this platform if it is built to commercial specs as it is less equipment/weapons dense ...
Theoretically the manufacturer could still fix these issues and enter the bidding, but the PhAF will also consider these as "Prototype Fixes" since they are still in the drawing board and have not been demonstrated operationally on their aircraft. This will likely be part of the considerations they will take when choosing the winner, meaning an aircraft that fits the specs will have better chances of winning than an aircraft with proposed fixes ...
ReplyDeleteWell then, let's wait for August 11... Sana wala nang postponement or deferral......
ReplyDeleteThanks once again for that masterful enlightenment RHK...
CAS bidding moved to October 3, enough time for me to generate a blog about the questions ... https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://www.dnd.gov.ph/transparency/procurement/DND_BAC/Supplemental_Bid/SBB%20NR%20DND-AFP-PAF-CASA-14-07-004.pdf
ReplyDeleteOuch! Nth time it's moved...
ReplyDeletei came across this first on the PDFF site, Hyundai has designed a minelayer based on the Incheon batch 1 which incorporates a small VLS atop the hangar. so maybe Hyundai will find or found a way to incorporate one in their bid if not now at least provide space for it in the future should they win.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?225281-Hyundai-Heavy-Industries-MLS-II-anti-submarine-minelayer-for-ROKN
i heard that elbit is joining the cas project and might offer an elbitized alca 159. is their offer valid since it is a jet powered? the phaf is bias towards the super tucano but if elbit passes on all criteria except being prop driven will they consider this? just asking. most likely the beechcraft people moved the bidding because they asked a lot of questions and requested a lot of mods from the contract.
ReplyDeleteYes, the manufacturer Hyundai is in the best position to determine the feasibility of putting a VLS on the HDF-3000. That's a pretty heavy Minelayer, though. At 4,200 tons, it is heavier than the 3,000 ton HDF-3000 ...
ReplyDeleteThe CAS did not specify a Turboprop engine, hence a jet engined aircraft definitely is eligible. I think the PhAF is looking at the BEST possible aircraft they can get, so if somebody comes up with an aircraft better than the ST, then it might win.
ReplyDeleteI think this is important because with plans to procure 18 more later, whichever aircraft will win in this bidding will be our main CAS aircraft for the next couple of decades ...
IMO a jet powered aircraft is even more advantageous if we look to the future when territorial defense will be more critical than internal security....the PAF will just have to make sure that the issues of cost of operation and loiter time for COIN is adequately addressed.
ReplyDeletethe su 25 is kinda overkill already. then again that bomb load is more than enough for cas. if ever we get one it would be our first truly dedicated bomber since world war 2. if we go along this track then might as well reconsider the kfirs as well.
ReplyDeletenot really if its going to be used for territorial defense (over the WPS) as the DND had been implying in the bidding requirements they released
ReplyDeleteupgraded kfirs are reportedly offered for 20 million each if i recall correctly so may not fit the budget
ReplyDeleteA jet engined aircraft will generally be a couple of hundred kph faster than a turboprop aircraft, enabling it to reach the theater of battle faster and also will enable it to escape enemy aircraft better. But then again, turboprop aircraft have smaller exhaust plumes and cooler exhaust gas temperature, usually by around 150 deg. C less, making them more difficult targets for IR homing weapons.
ReplyDeleteSpeed is good, but it shouldn't be the main consideration. However, with all things being equal (i.e., armor, countermeasures, warning systems, etc.), then a jet engined aircraft will have the advantage ...
The upgraded Frogfoot (called Scorpion) is a very interesting prospect, if you look at Elbit's official website, they are indeed offering it there (https://www.elbitsystems.com/elbitmain/area-in2.asp?parent=169&num=174&num2=174). If it fits the budget, it could likely be superior to the Super Tucano.
ReplyDeleteThe only issue with these Russian-designed aircraft are the engine life, which reportedly only half that of western aircraft at most, necessitating a more frequent engine overhaul.
Well, yeah, an SU-25KM would theoretically be a better maritime strike aircraft than a Super Tucano. Higher speeds and payload. But let's wait and see if it will really fit the USD 18 million per aircraft budget. This is probably the reason why the DND was willing to postpone the bidding for 3 months, the prospect of getting an even better aircraft than the ST ...
ReplyDeletei think the dnd should not make the st a maritime strike weapon. it should be a separate bidding completely. a maritime strike aircraft should have longer range and should have two engines for survivability in case of loss of one engine. a c295 would be a better fit. i think some gulf states have already asked eads to make a c295 gunship version.
ReplyDeleteNot to mention Russian engines on a Georgian airframe.
ReplyDeleteAfter what happened between those two this Su-25 'offer' is kind of unlikely ...
ReplyDeleteThere is a lot of bad blood between Georgia and Russia, but I wonder if despite all that, some business transactions between both countries are still okay. After all, Elbit still is showcasing the SU-26KM on their website. As far as I know, the Georgian company manufactures the entire aircraft except for the engines, which is manufactured by Turmansky in Russia ...
ReplyDeleteit looks like the su 25 is an overkill for a COIN mission and maybe these planes are gas guzzler. personally i prefer l-159 alca if the afp opted for a jet powered aircraft for CAS. i think the operational cost of l-159 is very low compared to su 25 and just like the su 25 the l-159 will be a good complement for our fa-50 in regards to WPS.
ReplyDeleteBTW is there any news regarding the ASW helicopter? who won? no more news of this program lately.
HI RHK,
ReplyDeleteThe report says it is a supply boat and I could see from the footage that it appears to be powered not by an outboard engine but by a twin 20HP engine commercially available anywhere in the country.
http://www.abs-cbnnews.com/video/nation/08/04/14/businessman-donates-boats-philippine-navy
Do you have a better pic of these boats for us to better appreciate it?
Nakakaintriga kasi ang dating ng barko and from all the limited angles I can see in the footage, it looks impressive in ingenuity...
ass & type: Incheon Class Frigate batch2
ReplyDeleteType: Frigate(The new anti-submarine frigate)
Displacement: 3,080 t (empty)
3,593 t (full load)
Length: 122 m
Beam: 14 m
Draft: 4 m
Propulsion: (The new engine)
Rolls-Royce MT30 hybrid electric propulsion
Speed: 30 knots (56 km/h; 35 mph) (max)
18 knots (33 km/h; 21 mph) (cruising)
Range: 8,000 km (5,000 mi)
Complement: 98
Anti-submarine torpedoes, anti-ship torpedo stealth swing doors
Sensors andprocessing systems: 3D search radar(LIG NEX1)
Samsung Thales Naval Shield Integrated Combat Management System
Electronic warfare& decoys:
LIG Nex1 SQS-240(V)K (batch1 SLG-200) ,Sonata electronic warfare suit
IRST x 4(batch1 x2), SQL-261K(TACM),MASS(decoy)
Towed Array Sonar System
Armament:
1 x 5 inch Mk-45 Mod 4 (127mm/L62) naval gun
1 x 20 mm Phalanx CIWS
1 x KVLS(16cell) Haegung missile
2 x 4 SSM-700K II(Hae Sung II anti-ship missiles)
2 x 3 K745 LW Blue Shark torpedoes
Aircraft carried:AW-159&SURION ASW helicopter,UAV
Aviation facilities: Flight deck and enclosed hangar for up to one medium-lift helicopters(Guard rail for transporting helicopters)
The Incheon batchIII is canceled.
South Korea navy Aegis Construction in 2020
Aegis batch II --- AMDR
KDXA2-- cancel
Incheon III ---- cancel
Philippine Navy to buy your Incheon batchII
I posted Philippine Military Sites Military Sites in South Korea.
ReplyDeletehttp://bemil.chosun.com/nbrd/bbs/view.html?b_bbs_id=10040&pn=1&num=80119
Many are interested in Korea.
Thanks for the information about the cancellations of the Incheon Batch 3 and KDXA2, kim205co. If really true, than that is too bad, Incheon Batch 3 seems like a pretty good ship ...
ReplyDeleteThe CAS aircraft will be used more than just for COIN, punk zappa, hence the better capability an aircraft has, the better for the PhAF ...
ReplyDeleteSorry I don't have a better pic, Dewey. Based on the footage it seems to be a very simple ship, just a platform for loading items and the 2 engines. No shelter, no room for any other equipment. This is basically just something to transport bulky and heavy stuff over short distances, probably staying close to the shore ...
ReplyDeletethere goes our possible future AAW frigate
ReplyDeleteIf the cas asset is gonna be used for other purposes like maritime strike and surveilance then the alca would be a perfect fit. Its just like an s211. But again if the budget is 18m php then might as well add 2m to get a kfir or split it for an st and a kfir. Konti nalang meron ka na ring 4th gen mrf.
ReplyDeleteIts a long wait for the winning bidder for the frigate. Napaasa tayo dun ha.
China is again protesting the corvette gift from sokor and declaring their arrogance by their intention to not follow the spratly moratorium. Is that how a mature country acts? More than that malaysia still refuses to side with us. Wtf. I bet you if a filipino or vietnamese soldier dies because of the chinese they still wont help us. The bully and his accomplice. The bigger question is if china still builds despite the moratorium what then?
The good news is that the kindness we gave to sokor, vietnam and israel are bearing fruit. Sokor gave us our planes and ships, israel gave us tanks and radars and vietnam supports our cause.
It might still be possible to go ahead with the Incheon Batch 3 on our own since the concept or design is already existing ...
ReplyDeleteI think the USD 20 million per plane price cited for the Kfir is only for the aircraft and not including Integrated Logistics Support which will make it more expensive ...
ReplyDeleteAnother optional counter measure to apply our latest 2 frigates from Chinese antiship missile.
ReplyDeletehttp://defense-update.com/20140628_pandarra-fog.html#.U-Gfpnr9qiY
Thanks for the info. Another Softkill weapon that will make AShMs less reliable in sinking ships. I suspect this is probably in response to the Supersonic AShM threat also.
ReplyDeleteNew weapons like these will make cannons more important, which is why I feel a switch to 127 mm cannon would be a good idea, if we can. Larger guns are more prone to jamming as the American experience against the Iranian Swarm Boats showed, but their superior range will allow ships armed with them to stay out of the range of enemy ships with 76 mm guns while still being able to engage to attack on their own ...
This is disheartening folks.... Sokol crashed!!!
ReplyDeletehttp://www.philstar.com/nation/2014/08/07/1354924/air-force-chopper-cabinet-execs-convoy-crashes
Why Incheon expensive?
ReplyDelete310 Million ---> development cost,design costs,inflation cost
No price on the ship!
Korea Navy to create a ship ----> production price (hull price) contract
The 210 million frigate hull purchase price.
Entered service 310 Million
(DSME Thai frigate price, sigma price, please compare)
OTOMelara127mm not .----> 127mm (5 ") mark 45 mod 4 (KMK 45) License
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_5-62_mk45.htm
Incheon crew---> 140
Gyeonggi-do crew---> 120
Jeonbuk crew---> 120
Radar Incheon frigate wrong.
Not smart-s mk2.--->SPS-550K.
Incheon radar is an active phased array radar.
Audience development.
The main antenna array consisting of 24 elements assembly,
Semiconductor transmission assembly 16, receiving assembly 08 of semiconductor,
24 channel digital receiver for receiving
Output: 2KW/MODULE, PEAK POWER: 32KW
SMART-S MK2 peak power: 2kw x 12unit transceiver module = 24kw
FFX radar peak power: 2kw x 16unit transceiver module = 32kw
Dutch company Thales SMART-S MK2 license Cancel!
LIG-NEX1 developed
Wikipedia is not correct catalog
Do you have any reliable source for the USD 310 million price for the Incheon Batch 2, kim205co? If you have, kindly share with us.
ReplyDeleteI do not know the price of Incheon II.
ReplyDeleteDSME 2013.12.30 batch2 322.6billion won ($ 320 million), the first ship prices
Test sail, weapon performance testing, operational testing = Prices are rising
Incheon II Price -----> $400 million estimated-->Rates (1 $ = 1,036won)
More sources
http://bemil.chosun.com/nbrd/gallery/view.html?b_bbs_id=10044&pn=1&num=177043
(Korea's largest military site)
I think the USD 400 million or USD 320 million price for the Incheon II is not so reliable, kim205co since the source is just a blog. If it were a news item, it would be more believable. Anyway, if you can find a better source for the Incheon II price, please share it here.
ReplyDeleteHi! rhk11, Is it possible for our government to just split the procurement of the Frigates bet. Korea and Spain. Just buy one each of the HDF-3000 and A2200C so that the Phil. Navy personnel can be trained on a wider variety of naval weapons systems.
ReplyDeleteDo not speak English
ReplyDeletePlease understand
Not a simple blogger. Boeing, Lockheed Martin, BAE, DSME, Samsung Thales
Visit the company official.
DSME engineer talked (400 million)
Korea Navy has no money (batch 2 price is expensive)
Incheon2 9plan -----> 8 plan
I'll post if the correct source.
The Sokol seems didnt feel like riding with the VIPs.
ReplyDeleteNo, I don't think so.
ReplyDelete322.6 billion won for Batch II from an unimpeachable source: http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dsme.co.kr%2Fpub%2Fds%2Ftd%2Fdstd030Q.do%3Fdt_type%3Dtod%26src_today_type%3D%26dt_seq_no%3D2927%26currentPageNo%3D1
ReplyDelete"Speaking to IHS Jane's at the inaugural Asian Defence and Security 2014 (ADAS 2014) exhibition in Manila on 17 July, a spokesperson from HHI's Special and Naval Shipbuilding division said it will likely feature an armaments and equipment fit tailored to suit the PN's desired mission profiles of interdiction, long-range patrol, and surveillance across the country's exclusive economic zone (EEZ). However, he declined to reveal specific details of the proffered design due to the ongoing bidding process."
ReplyDelete"The spokesperson said HHI expects the DND to announce its selection by September 2014."
http://www.militaryaerospace.com/news/2014/08/02/adas-2014-hhi-pitches-hdf-3000-design-for-philippine-frigate-programme.html
There doesn't seem to be anything in the article that says the Batch 2 Incheons are worth 323 Billion Won, franmar ...
ReplyDeleteNavantia's "Alvaro de Bazan" class are excellent ships, but the latest one is supposed to cost USD 1.3 Billion, maybe a little too expensive for us. I feel our best bet for a heavier, more powerful ship that would approximate the Chinese Type 52D Destroyers would Denmark's "Iver Huitfeldt" class ships, which are heavily armed with all of those Stanflex modules. The basic ships are reportedly worth only USD 325 million each, with all 6 modules per ship probably over USD 400 million each ...
ReplyDeleteYes, looks like the announcement will be delayed by 2 months ...
ReplyDeleteIn a sense it is good if they are following what we call the ghost month belief or fueng shui. No oriental would want to sign anything from July 27 and 45 days thereafter, usually no new ventures, contracts, business or projects or any kind of deal on those months, based on my experience. Possible nothing earlier than Sept 12.
ReplyDeleteExcellent point, Freddie. Yeah, I read about that recently, just wasn't able to tie it in with the bidding ...
ReplyDeleteAm glad they did it, I was hoping for that. They are really making sure everything will go well:-)
ReplyDeleteOr maybe they want to make sure the Pohang is delivered with the systems they promised, quid pro quo, in view of the chink's lobby. If they renege that may open the door for the Avante.
ReplyDeleteSome bad vibes about the project, though as I posted on my FB page. A retired former Captain of the Philippine Navy and a POSSIBLE member of the Navy's Technical Working Group (advisers) posted in a closed Facebook group about the Navy's New Frigate Acquisition Project that he is, "... anticipating a failed bidding similar to what happened to the Coast Watch System Project ...", and that in the end the suppliers, DND, etc. just ended up wasting all the time, effort and money in this bidding.
ReplyDeleteI hope he is wrong. But if the bidding does fail, there is time for a revision of the specs and another bidding to take place, but then a big question will be, will the suppliers still participate? Or maybe the DND will just go thru a negotiated procurement somewhere ...
“… anticipating a failed bidding similar to what happened to the Coast Watch System Project …”
ReplyDeleteWhen did this happen? In fact the latest ITB for RHIBs is part of CWS: http://www.philstar.com/headlines/2013/02/21/911524/dnd-buy-p979-m-coast-watch-system, https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://www.dnd.gov.ph/transparency/procurement/DND_BAC/Invitation_to_bid/ITB-Procurement%20of%20Rigid%20Hull%20Inflatable%20Boats.pdf, https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://www.dnd.gov.ph/transparency/procurement/DND_BAC/Supplemental_Bid/SBB%20NR%20DND-AFP-PN-CWS-14-03.pdf
Okay, this one is clearer. But I think you or somebody else posted that the next 2 Batch 2 Incheons were going to cost around USD 232 million if built by STX Europe?
ReplyDeleteMaybe its one of those things that the DND hasn't made public yet ...
ReplyDeleteUlsan'm not donate
ReplyDeleteThe scrap (sparewar material)
2023 - Incheon is batch3 alternative (dual-band radar)
KF-16 to decommissioned in 2030. (AESA radar, SLEP.CAPES.MMC, MFD .MIDS.IBS modified 2014.05 BAE Systems)
Korea's Next Weapon retirement!
kdx-3 2040. armed ballistic missile interceptors (SM-3) upgrade
kdx-2 2030 combat system, radar, long life upgrade (2016)
kdx-1 2020 Upgrade x ---> kddx replacement
Chamsuri Patrol (75 units) ----> PKX-A, PKX-B replacement 2018
LST gojunbong (4 units) ---> LST-II cheonwangbong 2018 Replacement
Ulsan frigates ---> Incheon III 2023
Pohang Corvette ---> ncheon I, II 2018 replacement
U-209 (2015 Combat System Upgrade) ----> 2020 DSME 3500ton AIP submarine (KSSIII) replacement
MIM-23 Hawk missiles (24 batteries) ---> km-sam 2016
k-200 APC (2400 units) ---> K-21 (IFV), Rotem KW1 6x6 (AFV) 2018 Replacement
UH-1H (140 units) ---> 2018 SURION replacement
Kowloon k136 170 units (rocket launcher vehicle) ----- 2018 KMLRS replacement
MD-500 (250 units) ------> 2017 MD-500 UAV renovated
Retired F-4E 68 2018 ---> F-15K, F35A Replacement
Retired F-5E 150 2018 ----> KFX 2024
Retired AH-1S 2022 ---> Combat system, night systems (upgrade), AH-64E Replacement
I thought you said that the Incheon Batch 3 was cancelled, kim205co?
ReplyDeleteAlso, how much are your KDX-II or Chungmugong Yi-Sun Destroyers? I think it is a good prospect for the Philippines, only 4,500 tons and yet has 56 VLS.
So many Excess Defense Equipment from South Korea which the Philippines could use ...
Will cancel the KDX-2A, batch3 one more.
ReplyDeleteKDX-2A, similar to the specifications batch3.
AMDR will be built in Korea had time many batch3 is this course budget
Must be increased.
batch3 ---> Smoke by construction of Korea Navy Aegis (2020 ---> 2023)
batch1 ---> multipurpose frigate
batch2 ---> Special ASW
batch3 ----> Special AAW
We recommend you to buy the Philippine Navy batch2 to increase the budget.
KDX2 ----> (2007) 450 Million Price (2002, 400 million)
ReplyDelete(2014) If you build now 550 million
SM-2 Block IIIA 1EA (2 million), 2007.
Red Shark (ASROC) ----> 1.8 million
C- star (anti-ship missiles) ----> 20 million
KDX-2 ------> 1year operating costs 17 million (2007)
6x17 million = 102 million
KDX3 -------> 1year operating costs (38 million)
Korea Navy has no money
KDX-2 VLS 40% are missiles.
KDX-2 VLS 40% are missiles? What about the other 60%?
ReplyDeletekDX2---->22/54 VLS Equipped
ReplyDeleteKDX3---->52/128 VLS Equipped
Mr. Tingabngab has excellent credentials, he is a former Captain of the Philippine Navy, graduated number 4 in his class from the PMA, etc. However, whether his "prediction" will come true still remains to be seen because as far as the DND is concerned, the Frigate Bidding is still ONGOING as per the Press Release they made a couple of days ago.
ReplyDeleteAs far as i know the reason for maes failing was comm was to low, which is disgusting. Anyways let us be positive
ReplyDeleteUnsubstantiated rumors. On the contrary, people could also say that the push for getting Maestrales was due to "commissions". Remember that the Italians were also embroiled in a questionable deal during Cory's Aquino time when they won with their S-211s despite the fact that the competing Spanish CASA C-101 was the better aircraft.
ReplyDeletethe dnd better realize that we are wasting our people's time and money by delaying this acquisition. i know its better to air on the side of caution when it comes to this but come on baka puro caution nalang. if we lack the funds then buy second hand and hope that we can get better the next time around. we are nearer to the said conflict zone so focus on that reality. we make it an air or ground war instead. aircraft, landing craft, tanks, sams, ashms, logistics, night warfare etc...we pull a vietnam on them. better yet make a mutual defense treaty with vietnam and indonesia. australia's foreign affairs secretary was right in saying that china only respects strength...sadly we do not have that...yet. so dnd please stop advertising that we will get this or that...please just get us a decent boat old or new. it does not matter. just start the ball rolling and hope that china will at least blink for a minute or two.
ReplyDeletehttp://blog.daum.net/han0114/17044258
ReplyDeletehttp://blog.naver.com/PostView.nhn?blogId=choikh19&logNo=40133475137
English site is not. Korean
A brief summary:
South Korea is the command to make the price down to 300 million ship.
Reject the contract profitability is not the first contractor Hyundai Heavy Industries.
(Hyundai Heavy Industries workers one year salary $ 80,000)
1 model (stealth design) ---> 2 models (design 10 million price reduction) changes
Quantity (24 plan -----> 20 plan)Price increases
2008 Rates (1 $ = 1250 won) 20014 Rates (1 $ = 1035 won)
2014 year of service costs $ 300 million
Do not believe Korea news is not the military knowledge.
Note: DSME Thai Navy frigate contract price is $ 500 million (Incheon II variations)
Price is not $ 250 million worldwide frigate.
Raytheon and negotiation:
(Complete RAM Block 2 development) RAM block 1 ---> RAM Block 2 upgrade low price
According to my source the Maes failed because the italians kept on uping the price. For this system you must add this....
ReplyDeletethat system plus this... so on and so forth. And as they said na bwisit ang DND.
Tsk, not a good deal, then. The Italians should've come up with a list of what's included, and at what price. Simple. But if they keep adding this or that and then keep upping the price ... then it sounds like a scam, really.
ReplyDeleteIt actually reminds me of going to some massage parlors where the girl will say, "Sir kapag tanggal ang bra, me dagdag. Kapag tanggal ang panty, me dagdag na naman. Hanggang hawak lang po, kapag me kiss me dagdag na po ... " Hay, naku ...
what a parody RHK... hahahaha
ReplyDeleteHow come our Navy didnt patrol in the Reed Bank before Chinese survey ships came there in the first place?
ReplyDeleteIt will be pointless if we buy more ships and long range planes if there are incapable to spot the intruder.
Remember that they were spotted, that's why we know they are there in the first place. But HOW they were spotted is unclear; Were they spotted by aircraft, or by ship? If they were spotted by ship, its possible that they were not challenged because if they were, the tensions would have gone up even more. Maybe the PhN is enforcing the policy of just reporting rather then challenging Chinese ships.
ReplyDelete'Tuso rin itong mga intsik, baka naghahanap lang ng dahilan para magpadala ng mas maraming barko pa duon, so kung hinarang e baka yun nga ang gagawin ...'
Most likely they were spotted by p3 orion planes of the usn. Can somebody confirm their hangars locally? Its hard taking the higher ground of non escalation when you know that your foe is a back stabber and a liar. Just hope that the world would help the rp when china goes too far. Im almost at the point of giving up the frigate programme. Will we ever get them at all? Or should we settle for donations from friendly countries. I give up on the asean assistance. They are just too friendly with the chinese.
ReplyDeleteI think we just need to be patient with the Frigate program. As Freddie pointed out, it could just be because of the "Ghost Month". I nothing happens by September ... Well ...
ReplyDeletepohang corvette:
ReplyDeleteCreate new as you donate to Philippine Navy.
Replacement by a new restaurant, a bed, the bridge
Donated to the Colombian corvette photos
Do not forget the sacrifice of war, when Korea Philippines
http://bemil.chosun.com/nbrd/gallery/view.html?b_bbs_id=10044&pn=1&num=191507
Before and after the change
1 Dry Dock shaping
2 wheelhouse
3 crew Restaurant
4 meeting rooms changed
5 bedrooms soldier
Thanks, kim205co. I sort of understand what you are saying, that the Pohang Corvette that will be donated to the Philippines will be drydocked and that a number new equipment will be installed to replace the old ones.
ReplyDeleteOn Mr Tingabngab -
ReplyDeleteI am equally impressed with his credentials as well. I saw he also wrote an article in the US Naval Postgraduate School comparing the arms procurement processes of the Philippines with that of the US.
However, I became very suspicious of his mental state when he went public in Facebook including his comment there
Possessing that kind of education and qualifications would have amplified his capabilities to work with and control the environment towards an objective
Working overseas, I have observed that there are a whole lot of very good Filipino professional workers. However, too few become managers or leaders overseas in comparison to other nationalities. My personal deduction is that Filipinos tend to be less emotionally resilient at work, a trait which needs to increase as you climb the corporate ladder. I have interviewed thousands and when a usual Filipino is asked why he resigned his last job, the usual response is “politics”. All work places have politics so it’s not news
Part of the unwritten deal from graduating from as State university is you must return the favour to the State. It is also knowing that the Philippine society particularly civil service is not picture perfect and needs a lot of help. The State has invested in you not to ridicule and humiliate it further as this will not get you far. You are there contribute in shaping it towards a better future in addition to being honest servant
I think he is brilliant, his credentials says so. But he may have personal reasons against the Philippine Navy because he did leave that organization. I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, though, let's see what really happens on the Frigate bidding ...
ReplyDeleteChinese SU-27 harrassing US P-8
ReplyDeletehttp://freebeacon.com/national-security/chinese-jet-threatened-u-s-intelligence-aircraft/
Mukhang kulang training mga Instik eto.
Commander Tingabngab retired from PN service as the former head of the Naval Modernization Office in 2012 or long before the ongoing frigate project. Any involvement would have been in his capacity as a retired officer and at most limited to advising actual serving members of the TWG. Posting his opinions on Facebook indeed comes off as unbecoming. :/
ReplyDeletehttp://www.navy.mil.ph/news.php?news_id=816
he must have been with the camp of former VAdm Pama who retired a year or so ago......i remember from interviews/comments he made before he retired that plans are well on their way to procure hardware particularly upgrading the former WHECs like missile and self defense capability but these plans seemed shelved/postponed around the time that he left.... we all remember those times the topic was hot on the acquisition of the Maestrales and those plans seemed concretely on its way to fruition....then it went kaput (just after Pama retired IIRC).....so Tingabngab must have been heavily involved with these programs as the post below this implies.
ReplyDeletecorrection: i meant the post above from franmar
ReplyDeleteIncheon was caught while using a fake parts
ReplyDeleteNavy chief of staff were disciplinary action
Many Munitions companies have wrongdoing
The Incheon costs $232M a piece, our budget is $210M, since some parts will be stripped, it is a really good choice to get the Incheon
ReplyDeleteAnd if the South Koreans will give us RAM and Phalanx CIWS, forget the Floreal and Avante 2200, RAM and Phalanx CIWS would give us actual air defense, the only problem is if Navantia makes a cheaper ship without these systems, then the DND will have to choose them, so Hyundai has to fight tooth and nail to win
ReplyDeletewe should be happy at least the project was awarded (to HHI), as you mentioned all offers had their own share of pros and cons, in the end PN decided what they really want and need. rhk, will this still be counted under pnoy admin acquisitions?
ReplyDeleteNot yet awarded, they just reportedly passed the Post Qualification (PQ). As to whether this will be credited under PNoy or not ... If he signs the approval of the Contract, then YES.
ReplyDeleteBut if not, and Duterte does it, then it should be Duterte's in my opinion, because in theory he could put it on hold and review it, or disapprove it altogether if he wants. So if he signs, the credit should be to him ...
http://news.sbs.co.kr/news/endPage.do?newsId=N1003511082
ReplyDeletekim, can you translate this?
Phil. Navy should have opted for several super vita type (i.e. Roussen Class) fast attack craft...62 m length, CODAD propulsion, armed with 76 mm oto melara SR gun, two (2) quad ASM launcher, two (2) stabilized 30 mm gun, 21-cell RAM launcher....7 days endurance, range around 4,000 km, max. speed of 35 kn...plus cutting edge sensors and countermeasures
ReplyDelete